Arguing With Liberals

As an older person living in today's society I am very upset about the drift toward Socialism, Social Engineering, Post-Modern thought and the turmoil into which our country is sliding.  I recently had a Facebook discussion with a good friend, the young-adult son of folks from our former church.  He is a real intelligent young man, doing very well in the real estate business and someone any parent would be proud of.

But he apparently has bought into the ideas of the Left.  He is a product of our modern education system and a fan of National Public Radio and other liberal media outlets. 

The following is the chain of a recent dialog between Buddy and Da Kona Guy:

From him: Make government smaller, reduce spending, cut programs,...just make sure it doesn't effect me, my family or my special interest group.

From Me: If we are going to survive as a country, we are going to have to "bite the bullet" and take more responsibility for our own welfare. We can not keep expecting the government to continue to increase programs. And Buddy, EVERYONE is part of a "special interest group". Some of us belong to several special interest groups, some of which have contrasting objectives. We MUST reverse the trend that we are following.

From Buddy;    This is what sparked my thoughts. It was sent from an organization, of which I'm a member, a very strong movement to make sure congress doesn't get rid of the Mortgage Interest Deduction. Getting rid of this has a direct effect on my business. I *should* support NOT getting rid of it...

But then it just struck me...cuts need to be made - no question. And sometimes it's going to impact us personally. We need to be okay with that. Adjust...and move on. I think we need to think as a "whole" rather than just as individuals.

If we say "no" to everything that effects me and "yes" that effects other people...then just the loudest voices or voices with the most money win.

From me:  Hey Buddy, timing is the issue here. Since everyone lives in a home of some sort, the mortgage deduction affects the greatest number of people and the housing industry in general. To remove it would be a tax increase. At what time do you want to impact the country by doing that?
So lets THINK for a minute here.

1. The mortgage deduction encourages people to buy houses and condos.
Since everyone has to live somewhere, it is a good thing to stimulate home ownership.

2. Your home is your largest investment. When many people retire the real savings they have is in their home. When they want or need to move to an apartment or assisted living, the house can be sold for a
significant amount of money.

3. The housing industry provides jobs for thousands, probably millions of people. I believe it would be safe to say that the housing industry is the country's largest industry.

Now I have given you three points as to why eliminating the mortgage deduction is a bad idea, at least at this time in this economy.
Now it is your turn. Give me your reasons why you think it is a good idea.

From him : Okay...here goes Guy:
(Numbers corresponding with your item numbers)

1. "Since everyone has to live somewhere..." Exactly. People want and need to buy homes. You don't need a "tax ...deduction" to incentivize people to buy homes. Owning a home is better than renting. No tax benefit needed. I talk with people every day - every single day...very, very few of them buy because of the tax credit. It's an afterthought. It's a bonus, but not commonly a driving factor. Maybe more so at higher income brackets, but not middle America for whom the deduction is said to benefit most.

2. I don't disagree with you here. But again, the benefit from the retiree is the equity that is built in their house over 30+ years - that is the benefit. A retiree would gain from this without a tax deduction. I would add however, nobody should ever rely on their home equity as their retirement plans. That's poor planning. A lot of people in the past 40 years got lucky. Not smart to count on luck for retirement.

3. The housing industry is very significant to our economy - I agree with you. And many analysts say the housing market will be the driver that gets us out of our current crisis. But again, me being in the business, I don't think it’s needed. It's not going to be a make or break in the industry.

And here are a couple bonus ideas:

4. We need tax credits/deductions and incentives to encourage behavior. Behavior changes with times as we evolve as a culture. We need to change tax credits and deductions based on the changing of times. Giving incentives to encourage behavior that is good for us as a whole, community, planet, culture, etc. My point is, a mortgage interest credit was necessary at one time. It's no longer relevant.
5. Flat out, cuts need to be made and revenue need to increase. We can't balance the US budget without doing both. We need to choose ways to increase revenue, I would choose this one. At worse case, this would allow us to give deductions elsewhere that might benefit the whole more - mostly surround sustainable practices.
I'm open to challenges and thoughts here.

 

From me: I can see we have a fundamental difference of opinion, probably based on our political leanings, as to whether or not tax increases are necessary. In my humble opinion the problem with our ecconomy in not that taxes are not high enough, but that market conditions regarding banking practices and inflated housing prices caught the country with its pants down. I appreciate the fact that you have extensive knowledge in the real estate business. I was also in the housing business, owned and operated a construction company and concrete company for 35 years. And during that time we endured several recessions, and various govenmental policies that attempted to deal with the economy. I have seen some things work and some other things fail.
You say that tax incentives do not encourage people to buy houses. If that is the case, why do you think tax incentives will work to encourage people to pratice better behavior? And whose definition should we use to determine good behavior? Should we use my definition, your definition, the churchs'?
While I agree that our society is evolving, it needs to evolve within a constitutional framework. And I am not sure everyone would agree that it is evolving in a positive direction.   Buddy, I have come to realize that the only thing that can effectively change human behavior is a change of heart. While I hate to play the "Religion Card" when dealing with political issues, I know that when people get right with God, they get right with other people and their environment. They also make better senators, representatives, voters, etc. There are good people on all sides of the issues. But apparently many others are motivated by greed, fear, self-interest and hate.
I think we would both agree on this. So I will stop here.;-)

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What is painfully obvious in Buddy's thoughts above is that the whole Liberal Agenda centers around changing our behavior  or Social Engineering through government legislation and regulation.  They cannot do this within the constraints of the Constitution.  So they choose to whether ingnore our founding documents, or attempt to redefine them to fit their "politically correct" Post-Modern agenda.  These concepts are a poison to our way of life.  Too often we are tempted to try "just a little bit" of the poison to appease the Left and feel that we are working together for the betterment of our country.  But how much toxic legislation can our body tolerate? At what point do we become "sick unto death"?  We can only hope and pray that we have not gone too far for the attidote of common sense to be effective.